Friday, September 04, 2009

Scripture and Knowing God.

This is an answer to a comment made about the previous post. Due to the length I though it better to post it here instead of in the comments box.

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Knowing God begins before the new birth

From Romans:
…what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.



When man comes into relationship with God through faith in Jesus that knowledge deepens to become something more personal. But to come into that relationship we need to have faith. And how do we have faith in someone we do not know?

Of course the Calvinist would put regeneration ahead of the ability to have faith. But scripture makes it clear that faith in Jesus comes first. It is the one who believes who is saved. The gospel is the power of God for the salvation of the one who believes. It is the one who believes (and continues to believe) in Jesus who will not perish but will have everlasting life…

I agree. Knowledge of scripture will not necessarily lead to knowledge of God. There is a requirement to ACT on what scripture says. It is DOING and not only HEARING that is required.

A growing understanding of scripture IS required if we are to grow in true knowledge of God. Without that understanding of scripture we can never be sure that it IS God that we are following. There are many deceptive voices in the world and also in the church, as Jesus warned. And of course, that warning comes to us through scripture, so an ignorance of scripture will also result in an ignorance of the dangers that scripture warns us about.

The article that I recommended (see previous post) addresses the disturbing tendency that many professing Christians display when they are ambivalent and at times antagonistic towards the scriptures. The results of this can be seen in the experience based “faith” being pursued by millions in the western world – a symptom of which was last year’s “Lakeland Revival”.
People are choosing hype and spectacle with the flimsiest of Christian veneers, and are promoting that as genuine Christianity. Those people get caught up because they choose to be ignorant of God’s word and thereby remain ignorant of the God who inspired that word.
They are easily led astray by false doctrine, and end up following a false god – because they have not learned to recognise and know the TRUE God

When we are first introduced to someone our knowledge of them is limited and relatively superficial. Like in ALL relationships, our knowing of God increases according to the time spent together and the quality of communication that takes place. If we shut ourselves off when someone tries to share their plans, hopes, desires and intentions – then our relationship will never develop. Instead it is likely to lapse and eventually come to an end.
In scripture God has given us a revelation of everything we need to know about Him and His plans for mankind. Ignore scripture and we will remain ignorant of God and His desires and will be susceptible to receiving false ideas in place of the truth we pushed aside.

21 comments:

Paul G said...

Hi Onesimus;
Your quote, "Knowing God begins before the new birth".

It is always the age old question, ‘what comes first, the egg or the chicken?’
But of course we both know that the chicken came first.

In your life, you would never have come to know your physical or natural father if you would not have been first born in the flesh.
Likewise it is with God who is Spirit.
First is the new birth, not by the will of the flesh or the will of man and then comes the knowledge of God (Abba Father).
A man without a new birth does not and can not know God.
But what he can know is that there is a God, because God made it evident that He is.

I like your posts brother!
You are tackling difficult and controversial subjects and I agree with many of your statements, they also have troubled me for years.
Paul

Paul G said...

Also; I want to add to my last comment.
You said, "There is a requirement to ACT on what scripture says. It is DOING and not only HEARING that is required".

In that I fully agree with you!
But to act and doing is after the birth and not before.
A man can not act in the flesh before he is born in the flesh.
The same is in the spirit, he first must be born again of the Spirit to be able to see, enter or even act.

In today's churches they try to conform the natural man into a spiritual man by teaching him what to do, so that he looks like a Christian and produces so called Christian work.

Jesus said that they travel over land and see to make one convert, and when they have one, they make him twice a son of hell as they are themselves. (That means convert's to the flesh and not to the Spirit.)
Lot's of love
Paul

Onesimus said...

When that kind of reasoning is taken too far you arrive at the calvinist position that says no one can believe or repent until AFTER the new birth.

Man IS able to act on God's word prior to the new birth.

Repentance is active and is required along with faith in order to enter into salvation.

Onesimus said...

Paul said:
"In today's churches they try to conform the natural man into a spiritual man by teaching him what to do, so that he looks like a Christian and produces so called Christian work. "
------

And there is a big difference between people being taught how to act by today's churches and people heeding the word of God.

There is also a big difference between producing "so called Christian work" and obedience to the Spirit of God.

Conviction from the Holy Spirit precedes regeneration and men have the choice of how they will respond to that conviction.

God does not regenerate man to enable him to repent in response to the Holy Spirit's work in their lives.
Repentance and faith precede regeneration.

Paul G said...

Well Onesimus;
I can see only two positions.
Either, we lift up men.
Or we lift up Jesus in everything we say, preach and teach.

If we lift up men, then we will tell the world what men must do in order to know God and be saved. Also, we will give them jobs to do like, repent, believe in Jesus and also to have faith and trust in Jesus etc.
And if they have done all that, then surely we can find them another job to do like, give all the money to the poor and follow Jesus etc.

If we lift up Jesus Christ our Lord, we will tell the world what JESUS has done, we tell them who He is and of His majesty, omniscience, omnipotence, His finished work at the cross etc.
And then the Lord Jesus will draw ALL men to Himself just like He said.

'All men' does not and can not mean every man on the face of this planet!
By necessity of His omnipotence it must mean 'ALL His children' and that does not include Satan's children.
If that drawing is only for His children, then Jesus has succeeded in drawing all men to Himself just like He said.

Jesus must be lifted up, His choice, His will and His power and not mans.

And Yes! Onesimus;
"There is a big difference between people being taught how to act by today's churches and people heeding the word of God and being obedient to the Spirit of God".
I like what the Scripture says in 1 John 3:6 "No one who lives in Him (Jesus) keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him.
(v. 9) No one who is born of God (born again) will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God".
Paul,

dlt said...

Amen, and amen, Paul G!

"And there is a big difference between people being taught how to act by today's churches and people heeding the word of God."

Does the natural man have the ability to heed the Word of God?

What would be the result?

Scripture here, please, not your philosophy.

Onesimus said...

Paul,
That was written like a very devoted Calvinist.
In all your attempts to put God first you are missing one very important thing.
Salvation is GOD’S idea and He has clearly revealed man’s role in His salvation plan.
Unfortunately some prefer to think that God has personally chosen THEM out of the sinful masses of mankind and then smugly consider THEMSELVES to be “the elect”.

You say:
“Also, we will give them jobs to do like, repent, believe in Jesus and also to have faith and trust in Jesus etc.”

I suggest you turn to the scriptures and see the words of Jesus and the Apostles. THEY are the ones who preached of the need to repent and have faith. THAT is THEIR gospel, preached under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I suggest you start to believe THEIR words instead of the vain theologies of men.

Onesimus said...

Does the natural man have the ability to heed the word of God?


Abel was a natural man and he presented an acceptable offering to God.

Noah was a “natural man” and he built a boat under God’s instructions.

Abram was a “natural man”. He heeded and believed the Word of God and left his ancestral land on God’s instructions.

Joshua and Caleb were natural men and they heeded God’s word more than the evidence of what they saw when they spied out the Promised Land.

The Prophets were “natural” men yet heeded God’s word and prophesied to Israel.

Mary was a “natural” woman (unless you are a Roman Catholic) and in giving heed to God gave birth to His Son.

Joseph was a natural man and he heeded the word of God delivered by the angel and took his family to safety in Egypt.
Jesus came and preached to “natural man” and gathered a group of disciples most of whom heeded His word and followed Him (Judas being the exception). He also had a following of 120 “natural” men and women heeding His word and meeting in the upper room prior to the day of Pentecost.

On the day of Pentecost thousands of “natural” men heeded the word of God preached by Peter, and asked “what shall we do?”

The examples could go on through the book of Acts in every example given of the gospel being preached.

Onesimus said...

Interesting that the NT contains more than 50 references to the need for repentance, the consequences for not repenting and also that repentance produces evidence that repentance has taken place.

What gospel did Jesus preach?

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

What did Jesus send out His disciples to preach?
Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.

What gospel did the apostles preach?
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Acts 26:19-21 I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Paul G said...

Dlt;
I haven't got a verse on the result, but please feel free to give us a verse.

Paul G said...

Onesimus;
I may write like a Calvinist but they don't think that I am a Calvinist and neither do I.
I don't fully understand Calvinism and Arminianism.

And what are the doctrines of Arminius and Calvin?
Are they not just the doctrines of men?

I prefer the doctrine of God which comes from above by the Spirit of God in revelation to you and me and to every one who believes in Jesus.

Unfortunately I am one of those who think that God has personally chosen me out of the sinful masses of mankind and then snugly consider myself to be one of those blessed elect.:-)

In the sinful masses of mankind there are two groups of people.
Those who are God's children the elect and chosen ones and those who are Satan's children the reprobates, but the Lord Jesus came to save only His children from their sins.

As to the natural man;
Noah, Abraham, Joshua, Caleb, the Prophets, Mary, Paul, Peter etc. they are all spiritual men, because "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". (1 Cor. 2:14)

Onesimus, I love all the verses you quoted and fully agree with you.
Arminians, Calvinists and kalathumpianists all alike preach and teach those verses.
The difference I think is in our understanding, whether the catalyst of our new birth and life is mans work or whether it is only God's work.
I personally believe, it is only God's work because of election.
Regards,
Paul

dlt said...

We find Pelagianism among the Pharisees in the New Testament. Remember, the foundation of Pelagianism is the belief that we do not inherit Adam's sinful condition. We are born morally neutral, capable of choosing which way we will turn. Sin is something that affects us from the outside, so that if a good person sins, it must be due to some external influence. This is why it is so important, according to this way of thinking, to avoid bad company and evil influences: It will corrupt an otherwise good person. This Pelagian mentality pervaded the thinking of the Pharisees, as when they asked Jesus why they he did not follow the Jewish rituals. "Jesus called the crowd to him and said, 'Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" This theological orientation was so unfamiliar to the disciples that Jesus had to restate the point: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'" (Mt 15:1020). Later, Jesus scolded the Pharisees with these harsh words: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness" (Mt 23:2528).

Therefore, Jesus told them that they must be "born from above" (Jn 3:5). The Pharisees believed that God had given them his grace by giving them the law, and if they merely followed the law and the traditions of the elders, they would remain in God's favor. But Jesus said that they were unbelievers who needed to be regenerated, not good people who needed to be guided. "No man can even come to me unless my Father who sent me draws him" (Jn 6:44), for we must be born again, "not of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God" (Jn 1:13). "Apart from me you can do nothing. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-fruit that will last" (Jn 15:5, 16).

This message was at the center of the apostolic message, as Paul defended the grace of God against the Judaizing heresy that sought to turn Jesus into merely another Moses. Centering on the person and work of Christ, Paul and the other apostles denied any place for self-confidence before God. Instead, they knew that we possess neither the ability, free will, power, nor the righteousness to repair ourselves and escape the wrath of God. It must all be God's work, Christ's work, or there is no salvation at all. Surely the Judaizing heresy that troubled the apostles was larger than the issue of Pelagianism, but self-righteousness and self-salvation lay at the bottom of it. As such, the Council of Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15, was the first church council to actually condemn this heresy in the New Testament era.

dlt said...

Charles Finney was nearly the nineteenth-century reincarnation of Pelagius. Finney denied original sin. According to Finney, we are all born morally neutral, capable either of choosing good or evil. Finney held that our choices make us either good or sinful. Here Finney stands closer to the Pharisees than to Christ, who declared that the tree produced the fruit rather than vice versa. Finney's denial of the substitutionary atonement follows this denial of original sin. After all, according to Pelagius, if Adam can be said to be our agent of condemnation for no other reason than that we follow his poor example, then Christ is said to be our agent of redemption because we follow his good example. This is precisely what Finney argues: "Example is the highest moral influence that can be exerted. If the benevolence manifested in the atonement does not subdue the selfishness of sinners, their case is hopeless." But how can there be a "benevolence manifested in the atonement" if the atonement does not atone? For those of us who need an atonement that not only subdues our selfishness, but covers the penalty for our selfishness, Finney's "gospel," like Pelagius's, is hardly good news.
According to Finney, Christ could not have fulfilled the obedience we owed to God, since it would not be rational that one man could atone for the sins of anyone besides himself. Furthermore, "If he obeyed the law as our substitute, then why should our own return to personal obedience be insisted upon as the sine qua non of our salvation?" One wonders if Finney was actually borrowing directly from Pelagius' writings. The fact that recent polls indicate that 77% of the evangelicals today believe that human beings are basically good and 84% of these conservative Protestants believe that in salvation "God helps those who help themselves" demonstrates incontrovertibly that contemporary Christianity is in a serious crisis. It is evangelicals today, every bit as much as anyone else, who have embraced the assumptions of the Pelagian heresy.

Tim, all you have written is as a very devoted Pelagian Roman Catholic Pharisee.

Your doctrines do not lift up Christ, therefore they are not of God. Your doctrines lift up man and his ability, and are straight from the pit of hell.

dlt said...

"I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

Paul and the Corinthians would have failed to understand Christ's death apart from the Spirit's revelation to them about its meaning. God's Spirit bridges the chasm between the deep things of God and the human heart, graciously enabling human beings to understand the message of the cross, which would otherwise be incomprehensible. This “wisdom of God” is centered in Christ and includes all of God's plans for the history of salvation from before the ages (“before the foundation of the world,” Eph. 1:4) to the unending future of eternity (1 Cor. 2:9; Rev. 11:15; 22:5). It includes everything Paul preaches, “the whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27).

"Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God."

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

"But we have the mind of Christ."

Who are the "we" in the above verses?

"To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours"

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

"Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ
crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

To those who are what? Observant religious people? Morally self-righteous people? People with inherent ability to save themselves by following the laws that they accept?

Go ahead, Tim, you self-righteous Pharisee, rant about the "smugness" of those who accept the Biblical assurance of justification by faith and sanctification by God the Holy Spirit. But tell me, you who would justify yourself by your own works of obedience, have you renounced all your possessions? Have you sold all? Surely you do not covet. Yet where is your treasure? See, hold yourself up by your own works and you come only to condemnation through self-righteousness, or come to despair for your frightening inability to uphold the law of the Lord. You are yet a slave. Christ alone is our freedom. The gospel is our freedom, not only to be assented to mentally at the beginning of our walk, but to be lived out daily in dying to self and living to the glory of God.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." While v. 12 may seem to suggest salvation by works, it is clear that Paul rejects any such teaching (cf. 3:2–11). In 2:12 Paul means “salvation” in terms of progressively coming to experience all of the aspects and blessings of salvation. The Philippians' continued obedience is an inherent part of “working out” their salvation in this sense. But as v. 13 demonstrates, these works are the result of God's work within his people. "both to will and to work for his good pleasure"--Even the desire (“to will”) to do what is good comes from God; but He also works in the believer to generate actual choices of the good, so that the desires result in actions.

"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." Jesus is holy, innocent, unstained. Mosaic sacrifices did not affect the conscience, but Christ's sacrifice purifies the innermost being. "from dead works"--Deeds that cannot save due to human sinfulness. External works are stained--even our best attempts. Christ's blood alone washes our robes white by purifying our hearts.

Onesimus said...

Dlt,
Why bring Finney and Pelagius into this – except to create a straw man to support your viewpoint and to obscure mine.?

Romans 11 tells us that “God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”

This tells me two things. That ALL men are bound over to disobedience – the BIBLICAL version of man’s doctrines of “original sin” and “total depravity”– and this was done so that God may have mercy on ALL.
Man’s sinful condition puts ALL men on a level “playing field” so that non one can rely on their own worth and acts. But it also means that no one needs to remain INELIGIBLE for salvation because of their sinful condition.

No one has a chance of salvation apart form God’s mercy. No one can obtain salvation by his own efforts or his own goodness but must rely on God’s provision of salvation through Jesus Christ. That salvation is available to ALL who have continuing faith in Jesus and His sacrifice instead of their own efforts to please God.

And its interesting to see you are back to your old tricks. When all else fails ejaculate long strings of unrelated “abusive” theological labels hoping that at least one of them sticks.

And maybe you should check your bible – hell is not a place where evil originates, so nothing evil can come “straight from the pit of hell”. In case you didn’t know it, hell is not satan’s realm, he does not rule there and he can not come and go from hell as he pleases.

Onesimus said...

Paul G said:
Onesimus;
I may write like a Calvinist but they don't think that I am a Calvinist and neither do I.
I don't fully understand Calvinism and Arminianism.
-------------
Paul I apologise for calling you a “Calvinist”. I realise that by doing that I was using the same approach as those who would label me an “Arminian”.
While you do not identify with the label of “Calvinist” it is clear that your beliefs are very closely related to Calvinist theology.
But then Calvin’s doctrines weren’t original to him – his understanding was based significantly upon the theology of Augustine, which is perhaps why dlt/Darren is so insistent on calling non-Calvinists Pelagians.*

Paul I also believe in election but I do not believe in UNCONDITIONAL election of individuals for salvation (and damnation) as per the Calvinists.

Election is IN Christ and THROUGH Christ and our place IN Christ is received through faith.

You say you do not understand Calvinism. I have found that most who DO admit to being Calvinists also don’t understand (or at least do not ADMIT to) the implications of their doctrines – especially the more unpleasant implications.
----
* It’s ironic that dlt has extended his repertoire of insults with: “Pelagian Roman Catholic Pharisee”, considering Calvin’s source (Augustine) is a darling of the Roman Catholic church

Onesimus said...

I thought this ill-informed gem of a paragraph from one of dlt’s comments needed a bit more attention:

“Go ahead, Tim, you self-righteous Pharisee, rant about the "smugness" of those who accept the Biblical assurance of justification by faith and sanctification by God the Holy Spirit. But tell me, you who would justify yourself by your own works of obedience, have you renounced all your possessions? Have you sold all? Surely you do not covet. Yet where is your treasure? See, hold yourself up by your own works and you come only to condemnation through self-righteousness, or come to despair for your frightening inability to uphold the law of the Lord. You are yet a slave. Christ alone is our freedom. The gospel is our freedom, not only to be assented to mentally at the beginning of our walk, but to be lived out daily in dying to self and living to the glory of God.”
--------

Of course, I’m sure that dlt, in his “daily dying to self and living to the glory of God” HAS renounced all of his possessions and HAS sold all.
Or does he think that the actions of one of God’s “elect” aren’t important considering that his eternal destiny has already been determined?

Paul G said...

Wow, dlt. Excellent comments!
I read your comments a few times and my heart said yes to all your points except to the personal comment to Onesimus.
You could have left that off.
To much salt spoils the soup.
Remember, we are all brothers in Christ and the Holly Spirit will lead us into all the truth.
Paul

dlt said...

Tim, you did not answer. Do not compare yourself to men. You admit to being one in the cult of covetous idolaters in WOF. When you gave God "the gift" of your repentance and faith, did you do as Christ commands? Did you renounce all your possessions? Did you sell all and give to the poor? If not, can you truly claim Biblical repentance? I will not boast in my doings but in what God has done in me. It is internal, not merely external in word and actions. But a pretentious home is no more; two spare vehicles found needful families; I am no more an owner of anything, but a steward, for all is His and I long for nothing in this perishing world, and people think I have lost my mind not understanding that the Lord has given it to me. I praise God alone for such freedom, for He alone can give it.
Do not divert. Examine your own heart. Where are your eyes? You claim it was sloth, laziness, that kept you for 15 years from reading Scripture--something greater than that hindered you. Have you been purged? Who sees anything different in you?

Onesimus said...

dlt/darren,
You continue to demonstrate your allegiance to the father of lies and the accuser of the bretheren. You delight in emulating your father the devil. (I suppose you can excuse yourself though in the knowledge that you are no brother of mine so maybe could get off the "accuser" charge on a technicality.)

You have shown yourself to be a continual liar both here and elsewhere.

You also continue to bring up the sins of my past, of which I have repented. My relationship with WOF doctrine has been well documented here - which is why you know about it, so you will also know of my current attitude towards it.
You obviously have NO relationship with the one true God who chooses not to remember our sins and iniquities.

But what should I expect, you merely emulate the false and and malignant god that you worship.

dlt said...

Your sin was not in what you heard, Tim. It was in your heart. It was in your sinful will to follow after the idols of your heart. It did not come from outside. What you heard did not defile you. The human heart is defiled, and the desires of the heart enslave the will. Yet you uphold that same sinful will of man--while also saying this: "No one has a chance of salvation apart form God’s mercy. No one can obtain salvation by his own efforts or his own goodness but must rely on God’s provision of salvation through Jesus Christ. That salvation is available to ALL who have continuing faith in Jesus and His sacrifice instead of their own efforts to please God." And I agree with that--other than salvation being merely a "provision" (for the elect, salvation in Christ is complete--He said "It is finished"); so it is that we rely on the finished work of Christ Jesus, and are assured that He who began a good work in us will bring it to completion, whereas by our own soiled works we faced judgement and condemnation. But who are those ALL, and how did they get there, and once they are there do they look back and say "My free will brought me here"? Do they say "my act of repentance and my faith constrained God to regenerate me", or do they come to realize that all the time God has been at work, not themselves, for only He is good and does good and gives good gifts to His children, and such are repentance and faith--the fruits of regeneration, not its cause? Did Lazarus walk out of the tomb and boast of his free will giving him life? How about those dry bones before Ezekiel's eyes?

I asked: When you gave God "the gift" of your repentance and faith, did you do as Christ commands? Did you renounce all your possessions? Did you sell all and give to the poor? If not, can you truly claim Biblical repentance?

Do you call Him Lord, yet not do as He says?

Your only answer is that you left that cult, and I am an accuser and a liar. Diversion. I did not lie, nor did I accuse. I pointed to the "one thing you lack," but instead of conviction which may lead to godly repentance, or even sadness at indwelling sin, you merely erupted in anger and after calling me an accuser of the "bretheren" then called me a child of Satan. Your hypocrisy knows no end.

Examine your heart.