“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.” (Jesus)
Friday, April 29, 2011
Another Gospel: David Wilkerson
A powerful sermon preached by David Wilkerson on a visit to Australia:
For there shall come a time when they shall not endure sound doctrine.
And so David Wilkerson cites this verse as the basis for this sermon. I truly hope the irony is not lost on anyone here, but DW, as an ordained pastor of the AOG , is a party to the most heinous spiritual abuses of the last 150 yrs , and I speak of nothing less than the pentecostal perversion of the most basic doctrines of salvation and baptism ,ie, the second baptism or blessing that defies scriptural teaching that one is baptised with the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion.The pentecostal movement was poisoned at its inception by this nonbiblical notion that one had to experience the holy Spirit. Well sadly, the " generals" will be judged guilty of discarding sound doctrine and today we see the results , a wicked and perverse generation seeking signs , make no mistake, their signs are given to them, but they are not of the Spirit that gives life.
One of the chief reasons for people falling for false doctrine is elevating church taught doctrine above the clear revelation given in scripture.
The anonymous comment above is one example of that.
There is a great assumption displayed within that comment – and that is the anonymous writer’s idea of when “the time of conversion” occurs and what that “time of conversion” achieves.
Does this “time of conversion” result in an evidence-less experience of Spirit baptism?
EVERY case of “Spirit baptism” recorded in scripture is accompanied by some kind of observable evidence. This “Spirit baptism” could also occur at different stages in the life of the convert.
With Cornelius it occurred prior to baptism. Mostly it occurred after baptism. Some were believers for quite some time before their “Spirit baptism”.
A purely scriptural study of the experience of early believers in the early church will show a markedly different experience to that promoted by most mainline churches.
Yes the Pentecostals got a lot wrong and the direction most of the Pentecostal church is heading these days is disturbing – but like the non-Pentecostal church, their error starts when their traditions are given an authority above the word of God. However, the reality of a Holy Spirit baptism that produces noticeable evidence is not one of those deviations from scripture (though the singular focus on tongues is such a tradition that DOES ignore other scripturally recorded evidence.)
Your response to my comment imo is just typical of the pentecostal mindset, a belief that is based on experience. Incredibly , this new theology of experience somehow bypassed the first 1850 yrs of christendom and went unnoticed by the likes of Owen , Martyr, Spurgeon and so on . So lets take a look at this church " tradition " that believes that one recieves the Holy Spirit at conversion.
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ , for the forgiveness of your sins, AND YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Sounds very much like what Paul says in Eph 1:13 In him you also , when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation , AND BELIEVED IN HIM, WERE SEALED WITH THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT.
Fortunately Paul does not preach a different gospel from the one which he received, and this we know because in Romans 8:9 he says
You however , are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
Hmmm , so according to Paul, someone cannot recieve Christ , without also receiving the Spirit.
Paul doesn't finish there though, and so to dispel any confusion [ sown by pentecostals] lays it out clearly in Eph 4 There is one Body and one Spirit- just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call , one Lord , one faith , one baptism.
1 Cor 12:13 For in One Spirit we were all baptized into one Body- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
I don't know about tradition , but I do believe that many believers received salvation by faith, a salvation that is accompanied by the promised Holy Spirit. I truly feel sorry for those who cannot recieve by faith , but need to rely on some sort of experience as evidence of faith.
Anonymous said: Your response to my comment imo is just typical of the pentecostal mindset, a belief that is based on experience. Incredibly , this new theology of experience somehow bypassed the first 1850 yrs of christendom and went unnoticed by the likes of Owen , Martyr, Spurgeon and so on.
My reply:
So you based your beliefs on the experience of others?
You base your beliefs on Spurgeon’s experience? You don't base your beliefs on the examples given in scripture?
You believe that the reported experience of a few high profile ministers is the be all and end all of Christian reality, that their experience outweighs the scriptural record of believer's experiences?
You also assume that their reported experience is the common experience of all believers during that "first 1850 yrs"?
Whatever the experience of high profile ministers may have been, I prefer to base my understanding on the revelation of scripture.
Why should I base my theology on Spurgeon's experience any more than I should base it on the claimed experiences of today's Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner or other proclaimer of non-biblical charismatic excess?
I seek to match my Chrisitan experience with the SCRIPTURAL account of what believers DID experience and not on the experience of well known preachers, whatever their theological outlook.
I'll base my faith on what scripture DOES reveal, and not on the things that church history has not revealed.
Anonymous continues: So lets take a look at this church " tradition " that believes that one recieves the Holy Spirit at conversion.
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ , for the forgiveness of your sins, AND YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
My reply: Hold on – that’s only PART of what scripture says about the matter. Acts goes on to actually SHOW how this worked in practice.
Look at every instance where Acts shows how and when believers received the Holy Spirit. It did not happen automatically and silently. The Holy Spirit didn’t slip in unnoticed with no evidence. The Holy Spirit made a DIFFERENCE to people’s lives.
Do not ignore or avoid the several descriptions of what happened in the lives of believers when they received the Holy Spirit.
Those description were given in Acts to show the living reality – that receiving the Spirit produces an OBSERVABLE reality in a believer’s life and is not merely a theology idea or concept.
Considering the anonymous reference to Spurgeon in a comment above, the following quote from Spurgeon is interesting:
We do not need to be converted again, but we do need the windows of heaven to be opened again and again over our heads. We need the Holy Spirit to be given again as at Pentecost and that we should renew our youth like the eagles, to run without weariness and walk without fainting. May the Lord fulfill to His people His blessing upon Solomon! ‘That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.’”
- C.H. Spurgeon, Essential Points in Prayer, The Power of Prayer in a Believer’s Life ed. Robert Hall, Emerald Books.
If you would be so diligent as to read my comment again you will notice that I have based my comments , and hence my belief , on what scripture teaches,and not on what so and so teaches.
Quote Look at every instance where Acts shows how and when believers received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit didn’t slip in unnoticed with no evidence. The Holy Spirit made a DIFFERENCE to people’s lives. end quote
Strange how this falls a bit flat in the latter part of Acts 2
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized , and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
So where in this account of the three thousand do we see them speaking in tongues , or prophesying for that matter?
quote It did not happen automatically and silently. end quote
Well of course it happens automatically,and this is the promise that accompanies salvation. Under what other pretence do you propose that we receive the Holy Spirit????.
Romans 8:11 I f the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
My observation on this is as follows, pentecostalism has added a second baptism based on the tragic notion that the impirical evidence overides the written testament. Obviously , at face value there appears to a marked difference to what is observed and what is written , but clearly , what is observed must be reconciled with the written instruction. Iam not denying that visible signs occasionaly followed one's baptism with the Holy Spirit, however , there is no suggestion whatsoever , by way of written testament , that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is a seperate event apart from regeneration / salvation.
Anonymous, I suggest that people read through the book of Acts and note references to the Holy Spirit, in particular those references to believers receiving the Holy Spirit. Then they can compare what you and I have each said and see which view most closely matches the scriptural account.
I would also suggest that they consider how many times something in scripture needs to be repeated before we take it seriously. And whether it is necessary to be constantly repeated before we accept it: for example is it really necessary to describe Holy Spirit baptism and its effects every time a believer’s conversion is mentioned? Or should we be taking into account what scripture says several times in other sections that DO give details.
Also note that the various descriptions of people receiving the Spirit cover all of the main population groups of the time, showing the practical truth of what Peter said in his preaching on the day of Pentecost: “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy…”
The descriptions include the Jews (Pentecost) the gentiles (Cornelius’ household) the Samaritans, and the Ephesians (outside of Israel). Surely that should be ample evidence?
But read scripture AS IT IS WRITTEN without projecting religious preconceptions into the reading. What does scripture actually say – not what have you been taught that it means.
8 comments:
For there shall come a time when they shall not endure sound doctrine.
And so David Wilkerson cites this verse as the basis for this sermon.
I truly hope the irony is not lost on anyone here, but DW, as an ordained pastor of the AOG , is a party to the most heinous spiritual abuses of the last 150 yrs , and I speak of nothing less than the pentecostal perversion of the most basic doctrines of salvation and baptism ,ie, the second baptism or blessing that defies scriptural teaching that one is baptised with the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion.The pentecostal movement was poisoned at its inception by this nonbiblical notion that one had to experience the holy Spirit. Well sadly, the " generals" will be judged guilty of discarding sound doctrine and today we see the results , a wicked and perverse generation seeking signs , make no mistake, their signs are given to them, but they are not of the Spirit that gives life.
Powerful words from a man after God's own heart.
One of the chief reasons for people falling for false doctrine is elevating church taught doctrine above the clear revelation given in scripture.
The anonymous comment above is one example of that.
There is a great assumption displayed within that comment – and that is the anonymous writer’s idea of when “the time of conversion” occurs and what that “time of conversion” achieves.
Does this “time of conversion” result in an evidence-less experience of Spirit baptism?
EVERY case of “Spirit baptism” recorded in scripture is accompanied by some kind of observable evidence. This “Spirit baptism” could also occur at different stages in the life of the convert.
With Cornelius it occurred prior to baptism. Mostly it occurred after baptism. Some were believers for quite some time before their “Spirit baptism”.
A purely scriptural study of the experience of early believers in the early church will show a markedly different experience to that promoted by most mainline churches.
Yes the Pentecostals got a lot wrong and the direction most of the Pentecostal church is heading these days is disturbing – but like the non-Pentecostal church, their error starts when their traditions are given an authority above the word of God.
However, the reality of a Holy Spirit baptism that produces noticeable evidence is not one of those deviations from scripture (though the singular focus on tongues is such a tradition that DOES ignore other scripturally recorded evidence.)
Your response to my comment imo is just typical of the pentecostal mindset, a belief that is based on experience. Incredibly , this new theology of experience somehow bypassed the first 1850 yrs of christendom and went unnoticed by the likes of Owen , Martyr, Spurgeon and so on .
So lets take a look at this church " tradition " that believes that one recieves the Holy Spirit at conversion.
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ , for the forgiveness of your sins, AND YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Sounds very much like what Paul says in Eph 1:13
In him you also , when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation , AND BELIEVED IN HIM, WERE SEALED WITH THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT.
Fortunately Paul does not preach a different gospel from the one which he received, and this we know because in Romans 8:9 he says
You however , are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
Hmmm , so according to Paul, someone cannot recieve Christ , without also receiving the Spirit.
Paul doesn't finish there though, and so to dispel any confusion [ sown by pentecostals] lays it out clearly in Eph 4
There is one Body and one Spirit- just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call , one Lord , one faith , one baptism.
1 Cor 12:13
For in One Spirit we were all baptized into one Body- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
I don't know about tradition , but I do believe that many believers received salvation by faith, a salvation that is accompanied by the promised Holy Spirit. I truly feel sorry for those who cannot recieve by faith , but need to rely on some sort of experience as evidence of faith.
Anonymous said:
Your response to my comment imo is just typical of the pentecostal mindset, a belief that is based on experience. Incredibly , this new theology of experience somehow bypassed the first 1850 yrs of christendom and went unnoticed by the likes of Owen , Martyr, Spurgeon and so on.
My reply:
So you based your beliefs on the experience of others?
You base your beliefs on Spurgeon’s experience? You don't base your beliefs on the examples given in scripture?
You believe that the reported experience of a few high profile ministers is the be all and end all of Christian reality, that their experience outweighs the scriptural record of believer's experiences?
You also assume that their reported experience is the common experience of all believers during that "first 1850 yrs"?
Whatever the experience of high profile ministers may have been, I prefer to base my understanding on the revelation of scripture.
Why should I base my theology on Spurgeon's experience any more than I should base it on the claimed experiences of today's Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner or other proclaimer of non-biblical charismatic excess?
I seek to match my Chrisitan experience with the SCRIPTURAL account of what believers DID experience and not on the experience of well known preachers, whatever their theological outlook.
I'll base my faith on what scripture DOES reveal, and not on the things that church history has not revealed.
Anonymous continues:
So lets take a look at this church " tradition " that believes that one recieves the Holy Spirit at conversion.
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ , for the forgiveness of your sins, AND YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
My reply:
Hold on – that’s only PART of what scripture says about the matter. Acts goes on to actually SHOW how this worked in practice.
Look at every instance where Acts shows how and when believers received the Holy Spirit. It did not happen automatically and silently. The Holy Spirit didn’t slip in unnoticed with no evidence. The Holy Spirit made a DIFFERENCE to people’s lives.
Do not ignore or avoid the several descriptions of what happened in the lives of believers when they received the Holy Spirit.
Those description were given in Acts to show the living reality – that receiving the Spirit produces an OBSERVABLE reality in a believer’s life and is not merely a theology idea or concept.
Considering the anonymous reference to Spurgeon in a comment above, the following quote from Spurgeon is interesting:
We do not need to be converted again, but we do need the windows of heaven to be opened again and again over our heads. We need the Holy Spirit to be given again as at Pentecost and that we should renew our youth like the eagles, to run without weariness and walk without fainting. May the Lord fulfill to His people His blessing upon Solomon! ‘That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.’”
- C.H. Spurgeon, Essential Points in Prayer, The Power of Prayer in a Believer’s Life ed. Robert Hall, Emerald Books.
If you would be so diligent as to read my comment again you will notice that I have based my comments , and hence my belief , on what scripture teaches,and not on what so and so teaches.
Quote
Look at every instance where Acts shows how and when believers received the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit didn’t slip in unnoticed with no evidence. The Holy Spirit made a DIFFERENCE to people’s lives.
end quote
Strange how this falls a bit flat in the latter part of Acts 2
Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized , and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
So where in this account of the three thousand do we see them speaking in tongues , or prophesying for that matter?
quote
It did not happen automatically and silently.
end quote
Well of course it happens automatically,and this is the promise that accompanies salvation.
Under what other pretence do you propose that we receive the Holy Spirit????.
Romans 8:11
I f the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
My observation on this is as follows, pentecostalism has added a second baptism based on the tragic notion that the impirical evidence overides the written testament. Obviously , at face value there appears to a marked difference to what is observed and what is written , but clearly , what is observed must be reconciled with the written instruction.
Iam not denying that visible signs occasionaly followed one's baptism with the Holy Spirit, however , there is no suggestion whatsoever , by way of written testament , that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is a seperate event apart from regeneration / salvation.
Anonymous,
I suggest that people read through the book of Acts and note references to the Holy Spirit, in particular those references to believers receiving the Holy Spirit. Then they can compare what you and I have each said and see which view most closely matches the scriptural account.
I would also suggest that they consider how many times something in scripture needs to be repeated before we take it seriously. And whether it is necessary to be constantly repeated before we accept it: for example is it really necessary to describe Holy Spirit baptism and its effects every time a believer’s conversion is mentioned? Or should we be taking into account what scripture says several times in other sections that DO give details.
Also note that the various descriptions of people receiving the Spirit cover all of the main population groups of the time, showing the practical truth of what Peter said in his preaching on the day of Pentecost: “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy…”
The descriptions include the Jews (Pentecost) the gentiles (Cornelius’ household) the Samaritans, and the Ephesians (outside of Israel). Surely that should be ample evidence?
But read scripture AS IT IS WRITTEN without projecting religious preconceptions into the reading. What does scripture actually say – not what have you been taught that it means.
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